Let me get this straight. I don't like Karen Lewis, but I will take her to Tiny Dancer any day. Karen Lewis was able to effectively mobilize hundreds, even after Rahm organized what he thought was a strike-proof environment, to go along with a personal vendetta? You don't give much credit to teachers, do you? Are you seeing who's supporting her? Did you see an officer of the police union speaking out in support of the CTU? Tell it to 400,000 children? I would think after what's happened to the middle class in the last 30 years the children will see that someone finally stood up and said "enough" instead of swallowing their resentment and going along to get along.
Note to 19th ward blogger: Both sides reached agreement on wages, and both Lewis and Emmanuel said so. Please give us a number: what should teachers be paid?
MPots: What teachers "should" be paid should be a fair wage (based on the free market value). For this value, I suggest you look at private schools, Catholic schools, etc, where the wages much more closely match the value of the work.
I'm not sure why that's the free market value. You completely eliminate student populations that private school teachers would never think of dealing with. Something else I wonder: It seems to me that if private high school teachers get better results than your average CPS high school, shouldn't they be paid more?
" You completely eliminate student populations..."
Not at all. Vouchers would make it lucrative for the private schools to take these students.
The alternative? Completely eliminating the futures of student population through the current system, which is dominated by an anti-education political pressure and fund raising group (the NEA) which blocks all reform and encourages mediocrity.
" shouldn't they be paid more?"
The private teachers often have much better results, and are paid less. It shows you how "out of whack" the public school wages are: paying teachers rather excessive amounts to do what has been objectively measured as a very poor job.
It's like what was going in before the auto industry crash: auto workers being paid $70 an hour to build cars that ranked bottom on all quality ratings. It wasn't sustainable. But society allowing this result of bad cars is hardly a major tragedy: failing our children with bad education is.
I am not against a voucher system, on the face of it, and think it a good idea. (Charter schools, no.)
Private schools are under no obligation to take educationally challenged students under a voucher system. Do you honestly think they would?
OF COURSE private high schools have better results (and the schools that can afford to pay their teachers top dollar do pay top dollar, more than CPS). And they don't have to deal with 1) drug abusers, 2) parents who use poverty as an excuse for neglecting their child, 3) 35-plus students in a classroom, 4) homeless, 5) recent immigrants, and more -- these are students and families, in many cases, hell-bent on eliminating their futures. CPS teachers, in short, must deal with the social problems that are part of this country's fabric. Private school teachers don't.
19th said: "Average cps salary is 78,000 a year. Unions are out of control."
And there is the real war on the middle class. Excessive taxation, plundered from mostly middle-class people, to pay excessive unearned wages to reward public "Servants" for doing a lousy job.
As for the "union busting" charge against Rahm. Is it true? Is there any evidence of him preventing anyone who wants to from joining the union?
"A Chicago Public Schools spokesperson said average pay for teachers, without benefits, is $76,000. "
Source: CBS News. More research finds that the wage can be much higher. And this figure in the mid $70K's lowballs it, because it does not include the value of the various benefits. That easily takes the actual compensiation average into the $80k realm and beyond.'
IMHO, with an average graduation rate of 60% and other objective major indicators that on average, they are not doing a good job, one has to wonder why the pay is so excessive.
Rahm will retaliate by dismantling the CPS and replacing most public schools with charter schools run by his supporters. CPS teachers will lose big. The winners will be the kids and Rahm's backers.
It says "average" That's B.S. Teachers don't get paid to plan, grade homework and tests, decorate their classrooms, etc.. they do it all on thier own time. I doubt most teacher's make anywhere near 78,000. Principal's make 6 figures and so do all them useless bosses downtown
"Teachers don't get paid to plan, grade homework and tests, decorate their classrooms, etc.. they do it all on thier own time"
Sometimes. The rest of the time they have the students decorate the class and grade papers during class time. Why pay the teachers for this? If anyone should be paid, it is the students.... if you insist.
" Principal's make 6 figures and so do all them useless bosses downtown"
I do not agree with the attitude of "money is being wasted on Group B, and C... so lets do the same thing on with Group A".
That sort of thinking solves nothing, and creates budget deficits of hundreds of thousands of dollars.
Mayor TUTU picked THIS fight 1 yr. ago when he VOIDED the Contract with CTU by denying the 4% raise owed them by Mayor Mumbles, back then Daley INSISTED on 5 yrs. got it AND promised 4% the last year. Mayor POTTY MOUTH was ITCHING right out of the box to get it on with CTU, my question though and I've NOT heard it asked is HOW WERE YOU ABLE TO PAY $1250 lump sum to teachers AND schools that went along with your program?
Anon: If any mistake was made here, it was Mayor Mumbles promising a 4% raise out of money that didn't exist. While there is plenty to blame Tutu for, the wise decision not to give away money that he didn't have is not one of them.
Anon said: "Mayor TUTU picked THIS fight 1 yr. ago when he VOIDED the Contract with CTU..."
The contract isn't worth the paper it is printed on. It was signed under duress, and a large proportion of the teachers were forced to participate in it against their will. "Tutu" did the prudent thing.
Hating Rahm does not change the fact that CPS teachers ARE paid on AVERAGE over $75,000 not counting additional perks. They also do NOT work for 3 full months of the year...so let me do the math...if they DID work a full year like everybody else does...they would - in effect be making $100k....so 75k for 75% of the year...pretty good...AND they are being offered 16% pay RAISE during the worst economic conditions in 50 years - and they say NO? Morons. They should be fired for being so foolish and greedy ! They are being ridiculous. try talking to any of them they are living in an alternate universe (Again, they are usually complaining to someone who makes considerably LESS than they do)
Again, your accounting is out of ignorance (and you should read the newspaper -- teachers didn't say no to the wage offer). Would you pay a litigator for his time in the courtroom only? A corporate attorney for his time in the closing room only? If you say that teachers only work 7 hours a day, then those must be the teachers you know. They're not the ones I know. Did you see the recent UofC study? 10 hours at school daily, another two at home, and this doesn't count weekend work at home. You do the math. By the way, vacation is NOT 3 months -- it's 2.
Teaching used to be considered a profession, but now it is just another public sector union job. Fire them and start over...after all we have one of the worst school systems in America and the shortest school day ! This calls for a firing not a raise.
2. After witnessing the strike in the loop this afternoon, it's not this contract negotiation, it's pent up anger from the teachers - and I think many of them, like their predecessors 25 years ago are willing to go through the PR grinder, do jail time and face fines, and like 25 years ago I still think the teachers will come out on top.
3. Emanuel is a big political problem on his hand
4. As for the kids, this probably will be a week or so, and they will make up the time.
5. Where's Obama...?
6. Teachers are paid well in Chicago, but it's hard to teach with 35 plus students, and in areas or with families whom do not value education. Half the Catholic schools in Chicago do not face this class size problem because a.) no one can afford their tuition b.) they're in neighborhoods where the Catholic base has long since moved out and c.) their physical state is just as bad (no playground, no central air etc) as some of the public schools (Anyone gone to Visitation on 55th lately?) And like the public schools most of the inner city Catholic schools are filled with newbie teachers (ASBA-Laflin).
7. I stand with the teachers, because even with scarce public resources, education is the most important line-item in any budget.
As a police officer I have dealt with alot of different principals in the schools and in my experience they should not have the right to pick and choose their own teachers. It would just create an atmosphere of political cronyism as well as a ton of wrongful termination lawsuits. I think a teachers job in the ghetto schools are difficult enough without constantly being concerned about job security. The parents are not doing a good enough job at home of raising their own kids and a teacher can't accomplish this with a longer school day.
I agree with you on parental involvement. Many parents do not have any care about their children's education, and no amount of taxpayer money poured into that situation can change it.
The issue at this time is clearly not financial. The Board is planning on closing a large number of schools in the next couple of years. How would you like to be a highly rated teacher who happened to be assigned to a school slated to be closed. If by chance you were not selected to move to the new school, the receiving principal would have an option to hire a new teacher say right out of college. It may be a financial issue, a personality issue, or possibly a quality of talent issue. Secondly, when it comes to teacher ratings. How to you rate a teacher equitably when one teaches at Walter Payton, and the other teaches at Fenger, or how many different schools a student attended in a given year or number of years?
I went down to Ray school yesterday to spend time with a few strikers and it reminded me back in the bad old days in the 70's and 80's. 32 years in those schools and stikers keep in mind we always won,but that was before the charter and voucher crusade. I promise you Rahmbo will journey to Springfield and get Madigan,Cullerton and Cross to deliver a huge CHOICE package that will include far more charters and even a pilot voucher with full endorsement of the Ill. Policy Institute and Civic Committee. Long term that mean massive terminations.
Next, sadly the debate rarely discusses the level of violence that exists in these schools under the leadership of hundreds of grossly incompetent principals that have ben politicized over the years. John Q has no idea what goes on in these classrooms and with school mangers covering their collective arse it's no wonder their so much militancy in the strike line.
Last, I was amused to see the massive turn out around CPS and City Hall. This is right out of Saul Alinsky's playbook and must have caused another community organizer to wonder.
I agree. Charters are the wave of the future. And whatever their effectiveness, no one will care, least of all about the "children." Out of sight, out of mind.
The magnet schools and some other good neighborhood schools will remain, I believe, and some public schools will be needed to "service" the kids who are unacceptable to the charters, but that will be it.
MPots: Out of sight, out of mind? You seem to be talking about prisons, not charter schools.
"and some public schools will be needed to "service" the kids who are unacceptable to the charters"
1) This won't be necessary if charters are established with the specific mission to handle these kids.
2) You seem to be painting this as a charter school vs public school issue. When it isn't at all. Charter schools and magnet schools are types of public schools.
I hope they do. They have proven their very unprofessional attitude. The longer they stay away from the jobs that they threw away, the more likely it is the district will hire real teachers and that the quitters never return.
Yeah they look like they are having a ball. Good for them. Reminds me of an old SNL skit where Pres Clinton was at a town hall and this dim wit gets up and says..."Mr. President...like I see all these people...and like they have all this stuff...and like I just want to know...uh...where's my stuff?" Get your hands out of the taxPAYER'S pocket and get back to work.
Laying about for the week is easier than teaching. Nothing wrong with that, but they are still stiffing the taxpayers with a hefty bill for their time doing this.
And they are intentionally causing havoc with parents' and families' lives. Maliciously, in fact. And damaging education along the way.
Good teachers, bad teachers, not enough pay, too much pay. None of the arguments are really hitting the main point. The cityis out of money. MOST people are facing job cuts in their professions and PAY cuts and extra work. These are terrible times and this mountain of entitlements and debt has reached a threshold. We simply cannot afford it. Why don't these union people understand ? Rahm Emanual is a liberal Democrat, former Clinton and Obama man. Why is he forsaking you? Hint we are out of money. Or let me put it another way - we are out of money...or maybe you will understand this - we don't have any more money.
Austerity for some makes sense. Apply it to the wealthy and well-off (such as overpaid public 'servants' with excessive $76,000 salaries for not even a full years work fattening already fat wallets), but don't apply it to the needy.
It might crumble here: if the greedy strikers are busted down a peg. That is my guess as to what you mean by 'you know it'. I can only guess, as your sentence wasn't that well written and is unclear.
Interesting facts. The average teacher makes ALOT more than the average taxpayer paying their salaries. 40% of CPS kids graduate HS.
Pay us more because we have a second teaching degree. If you are so intelligent and educated then why such colossal failure to educate? (I know socie-economic factors exist, blah, blah, blah) but if you want to be paid more for that degree then it should make some difference in results...and if you CANT - then why should we pay you well above average salaries let alone a pay raise? Why not just get some ex military to baby sit these people who apparently are unteachable and save us all millions in taxes every year? Oh I know why. Because you would be out of a job.
And if they are at a school where they are personally responsible for raising test scores year after year? Oh, and by the way, ex-military would charge more.
I am reluctant to call them 'teachers' at this point. Their behavior is grossly unprofessional at this time. Perhaps lazy, too. It is a lot easier to loaf about at home or even wave a sign and shout juvenile taunts than it is to actually teach.
Why should this behavior be rewarded? Give them a day to go back to work an prove they are actually teachers, or fire them and replace them with real dedicated professionals.
The NY Times, a liberal flagship said it - Karen Lewis appears to be basking in the power to shut down the system. These people are wild eyed radicals who have convinced older teachers (who will be retiring soon and dont care) and young, dare I say dumb? new young teachers that they are being mistreated. In this economy it really is like fingernails on the chalk board to the truly "average" Chicagoan who is making in many cases ALOT less than you. Do you have any idea how angry it makes people to hear you complain when you are making MUCH more than they are? You are completely witless.
MPots' point is also interesting, as the policy he/she favors: overpaying teachers, does indeed push the average taxpayer to the bottom, by lightening their wallet with the excessive taxation required to make these upper crust $76K income earners so upper-crusty.
Oh I see....when people do it in the private sector by succeeding and providing people with something they want - that is evil. But making people (through taxation) - people making LESS than you pay you ever more...that is ok....sounds like a rigged system to me oh capitalist hater...Maggie Thatcher "The problem with socialism is that eventually you run out of other people's money"
And on Earth... where it puts you above the vast majority. In fact, I checked: 75k makes you richer than 99.5% of the people on Earth.
And also in the US, where according to the demographic data from this year, that income puts you in the top 33%. Even if not the thin upper crust, that is still the top slice of the pie.
You might have trouble buying that third car on $75000.... cry me a river.
Seriously, you must be sheltered in a gated community if you aren't aware that the 75k income is deep within the top 1% income percentile for this planet. Not Mars.
Mpots: And much closer to you than Mars, we can look at Chicago. According to city-data.com. Here we see that $76K per year puts the income earners in an even smaller group compared to the country: the top 29.7%
Add to that that the teacher income really likely not $76k, but likely at least $10,000 higher than that once you toss in healthcare and other benefits. And they really are in the penthouse of income.
dmarks: clearly you have a problem with people who make more than you do -- and not just teachers. I don't need to do the research, I already have. I've raised a family. I know what a total income of 75,000 buys in Chicago when raising kids, renting or owning a house, not a penthouse, and it doesn't mean a third car, either, or even a second one. I know what it's like living in New York City on much less, with kids, and that, too, was when my wife taught in the public schools there. So don't try and type me -- I don't fit into your statistical mold. Enjoy your time in space.
I refer you again to the facts about how $75 k is well off... and especially on planet Earth. Where , again, it is well within the top 1% income percentile. Your references to 'space' and 'Mars' are odd considering the terrestrial realityies.
I have no problem with people making more than me.. if it is done honestly. But when people like them are rich through the theft of money from every one else through taxation... that is another matter. The fact that they take their princely sums and do a bad job instead of work worthy of their wage makes it worse.
By definition, then, anyone in public service making 75,000 is rich, and, therefore, a thief? Includes attorneys, counsel to the city, police, basically, anybody.
Oh yes I know them quite well. And while I would not call someone who gets high wages not by earning them but by threatening violence and harassing people a lowlife. But not necessarily a theif.
But come on MPots, is making people rich as you want the real goal of public service? What about other forgotten matters... such as... imagine that... serving the public?
I went down to Clark Street for a visit to yak with the strikers. Told then that stikes always worked in my day,but this time I'm not so sure with Rahmbo at the head with his pal Barry and public support perhaps not as strong. Oh well reminded me of that genius Chesterton who said back in the 20's, "The whole modern world has divided itself into Conservatives and Progressives. The business of Progressives is to go on making mistakes. The business of Conservatives id to prevent mistakes from being corrected..." I have argued for years that neither side has a clue because they fail to understand that the issue is leadership from the CEO on down. In over 32 years at CPS leadership was never evident downtown or locally because they all become political to survive. Leadership is difficult to develop in organizations but not impossible. A good leader at a school will understand that the classroom has become an almost impossible environment for teachers to succeed. A real leader recognizes that human resource principles are key not principal lackeys. Lewis,however seems to get it and may be the best CTU leader since Healey. Both were first rate teachers in the HS core curriculum.
Sad
ReplyDeleteLet me get this straight. I don't like Karen Lewis, but I will take her to Tiny Dancer any day. Karen Lewis was able to effectively mobilize hundreds, even after Rahm organized what he thought was a strike-proof environment, to go along with a personal vendetta? You don't give much credit to teachers, do you? Are you seeing who's supporting her? Did you see an officer of the police union speaking out in support of the CTU? Tell it to 400,000 children? I would think after what's happened to the middle class in the last 30 years the children will see that someone finally stood up and said "enough" instead of swallowing their resentment and going along to get along.
ReplyDeleteFire everyone of those teachers. 16% raise turned down. Average cps salary is 78,000 a year. Unions are out of control.
ReplyDeleteNote to 19th ward blogger: Both sides reached agreement on wages, and both Lewis and Emmanuel said so. Please give us a number: what should teachers be paid?
DeleteMPots: What teachers "should" be paid should be a fair wage (based on the free market value). For this value, I suggest you look at private schools, Catholic schools, etc, where the wages much more closely match the value of the work.
DeleteI'm not sure why that's the free market value. You completely eliminate student populations that private school teachers would never think of dealing with. Something else I wonder: It seems to me that if private high school teachers get better results than your average CPS high school, shouldn't they be paid more?
Delete" You completely eliminate student populations..."
DeleteNot at all. Vouchers would make it lucrative for the private schools to take these students.
The alternative? Completely eliminating the futures of student population through the current system, which is dominated by an anti-education political pressure and fund raising group (the NEA) which blocks all reform and encourages mediocrity.
" shouldn't they be paid more?"
The private teachers often have much better results, and are paid less. It shows you how "out of whack" the public school wages are: paying teachers rather excessive amounts to do what has been objectively measured as a very poor job.
It's like what was going in before the auto industry crash: auto workers being paid $70 an hour to build cars that ranked bottom on all quality ratings. It wasn't sustainable. But society allowing this result of bad cars is hardly a major tragedy: failing our children with bad education is.
I am not against a voucher system, on the face of it, and think it a good idea. (Charter schools, no.)
DeletePrivate schools are under no obligation to take educationally challenged students under a voucher system. Do you honestly think they would?
OF COURSE private high schools have better results (and the schools that can afford to pay their teachers top dollar do pay top dollar, more than CPS). And they don't have to deal with 1) drug abusers, 2) parents who use poverty as an excuse for neglecting their child, 3) 35-plus students in a classroom, 4) homeless, 5) recent immigrants, and more -- these are students and families, in many cases, hell-bent on eliminating their futures. CPS teachers, in short, must deal with the social problems that are part of this country's fabric. Private school teachers don't.
So what...Rahm is a Union busting ASS
ReplyDeleteOr 300,000 children. That's all that Rahm thinks matter.
ReplyDeletePerhaps he has adjusted his "these children are worthless" threshold to include just about all of them now.
this is why my kids go to catholic schools.goodluck to the teachers, but i think you guys should have a no strike clause like the cops and firemen.
ReplyDelete19th said: "Average cps salary is 78,000 a year. Unions are out of control."
ReplyDeleteAnd there is the real war on the middle class. Excessive taxation, plundered from mostly middle-class people, to pay excessive unearned wages to reward public "Servants" for doing a lousy job.
As for the "union busting" charge against Rahm. Is it true? Is there any evidence of him preventing anyone who wants to from joining the union?
Where are we getting the average of 78,000 a year?
DeleteTo answer MPots question:
Delete"A Chicago Public Schools spokesperson said average pay for teachers, without benefits, is $76,000. "
Source: CBS News. More research finds that the wage can be much higher. And this figure in the mid $70K's lowballs it, because it does not include the value of the various benefits. That easily takes the actual compensiation average into the $80k realm and beyond.'
IMHO, with an average graduation rate of 60% and other objective major indicators that on average, they are not doing a good job, one has to wonder why the pay is so excessive.
16% raise for 9 months work! I only used to get ten dollars and a Pizza when I babysat.
ReplyDeleteTeachers make 78,000? JESUS CHRIST, I am in the wrong field. And that is with a summer vacation?
ReplyDeleteI was not sure what side I was on, but thank you! - now I know.
Rahm's motto: "Never let a crisis go to waste."
ReplyDeleteRahm will retaliate by dismantling the CPS and replacing most public schools with charter schools run by his supporters. CPS teachers will lose big. The winners will be the kids and Rahm's backers.
It says "average" That's B.S. Teachers don't get paid to plan, grade homework and tests, decorate their classrooms, etc.. they do it all on thier own time. I doubt most teacher's make anywhere near 78,000. Principal's make 6 figures and so do all them useless bosses downtown
ReplyDelete"Teachers don't get paid to plan, grade homework and tests, decorate their classrooms, etc.. they do it all on thier own time"
ReplyDeleteSometimes. The rest of the time they have the students decorate the class and grade papers during class time. Why pay the teachers for this? If anyone should be paid, it is the students.... if you insist.
" Principal's make 6 figures and so do all them useless bosses downtown"
I do not agree with the attitude of "money is being wasted on Group B, and C... so lets do the same thing on with Group A".
That sort of thinking solves nothing, and creates budget deficits of hundreds of thousands of dollars.
Well, they raised ISATs last year, all the while students decorating classes and grading papers -- pretty good trick, I'd say.
DeleteMayor TUTU picked THIS fight 1 yr. ago when he VOIDED the Contract with CTU by denying the 4% raise owed them by Mayor Mumbles, back then Daley INSISTED on 5 yrs. got it AND promised 4% the last year. Mayor POTTY MOUTH was ITCHING right out of the box to get it on with CTU, my question though and I've NOT heard it asked is HOW WERE YOU ABLE TO PAY $1250 lump sum to teachers AND schools that went along with your program?
ReplyDeleteAnon: If any mistake was made here, it was Mayor Mumbles promising a 4% raise out of money that didn't exist. While there is plenty to blame Tutu for, the wise decision not to give away money that he didn't have is not one of them.
DeleteDMarks: Is there money to fund TIF?
DeleteAnon said: "Mayor TUTU picked THIS fight 1 yr. ago when he VOIDED the Contract with CTU..."
DeleteThe contract isn't worth the paper it is printed on. It was signed under duress, and a large proportion of the teachers were forced to participate in it against their will. "Tutu" did the prudent thing.
Hating Rahm does not change the fact that CPS teachers ARE paid on AVERAGE over $75,000 not counting additional perks. They also do NOT work for 3 full months of the year...so let me do the math...if they DID work a full year like everybody else does...they would - in effect be making $100k....so 75k for 75% of the year...pretty good...AND they are being offered 16% pay RAISE during the worst economic conditions in 50 years - and they say NO? Morons. They should be fired for being so foolish and greedy ! They are being ridiculous. try talking to any of them they are living in an alternate universe (Again, they are usually complaining to someone who makes considerably LESS than they do)
ReplyDeleteAgain, your accounting is out of ignorance (and you should read the newspaper -- teachers didn't say no to the wage offer). Would you pay a litigator for his time in the courtroom only? A corporate attorney for his time in the closing room only? If you say that teachers only work 7 hours a day, then those must be the teachers you know. They're not the ones I know. Did you see the recent UofC study? 10 hours at school daily, another two at home, and this doesn't count weekend work at home. You do the math. By the way, vacation is NOT 3 months -- it's 2.
DeleteDid you honestly count ALL vacation: summer months + other breaks during the year?
DeleteTeaching used to be considered a profession, but now it is just another public sector union job. Fire them and start over...after all we have one of the worst school systems in America and the shortest school day ! This calls for a firing not a raise.
ReplyDelete1. It's time for an elected school board
ReplyDelete2. After witnessing the strike in the loop this afternoon, it's not this contract negotiation, it's pent up anger from the teachers - and I think many of them, like their predecessors 25 years ago are willing to go through the PR grinder, do jail time and face fines, and like 25 years ago I still think the teachers will come out on top.
3. Emanuel is a big political problem on his hand
4. As for the kids, this probably will be a week or so, and they will make up the time.
5. Where's Obama...?
6. Teachers are paid well in Chicago, but it's hard to teach with 35 plus students, and in areas or with families whom do not value education. Half the Catholic schools in Chicago do not face this class size problem because a.) no one can afford their tuition b.) they're in neighborhoods where the Catholic base has long since moved out and c.) their physical state is just as bad (no playground, no central air etc) as some of the public schools (Anyone gone to Visitation on 55th lately?) And like the public schools most of the inner city Catholic schools are filled with newbie teachers (ASBA-Laflin).
7. I stand with the teachers, because even with scarce public resources, education is the most important line-item in any budget.
As a police officer I have dealt with alot of different principals in the schools and in my experience they should not have the right to pick and choose their own teachers. It would just create an atmosphere of political cronyism as well as a ton of wrongful termination lawsuits. I think a teachers job in the ghetto schools are difficult enough without constantly being concerned about job security. The parents are not doing a good enough job at home of raising their own kids and a teacher can't accomplish this with a longer school day.
ReplyDeleteI agree with you on parental involvement. Many parents do not have any care about their children's education, and no amount of taxpayer money poured into that situation can change it.
DeletePeople are making good and valid points.
The issue at this time is clearly not financial. The Board is planning on closing a large number of schools in the next couple of years. How would you like to be a highly rated teacher who happened to be assigned to a school slated to be closed. If by chance you were not selected to move to the new school, the receiving principal would have an option to hire a new teacher say right out of college. It may be a financial issue, a personality issue, or possibly a quality of talent issue.
ReplyDeleteSecondly, when it comes to teacher ratings. How to you rate a teacher equitably when one teaches at Walter Payton, and the other teaches at Fenger, or how many different schools a student attended in a given year or number of years?
I went down to Ray school yesterday to spend time with a few strikers and it reminded me back in the bad old days in the 70's and 80's. 32 years in those schools and stikers keep in mind we always won,but that was before the charter and voucher crusade. I promise you Rahmbo will journey to Springfield and get Madigan,Cullerton and Cross to deliver a huge CHOICE package that will include far more charters
ReplyDeleteand even a pilot voucher with full endorsement of the Ill. Policy Institute and Civic Committee. Long term that mean massive terminations.
Next, sadly the debate rarely discusses the level of violence that exists in these schools under the leadership of hundreds of grossly incompetent principals that have ben politicized over the years. John Q has no idea what goes on in these classrooms and with school mangers covering their collective arse it's no wonder their so much militancy in the strike line.
Last, I was amused to see the massive turn out around CPS and City Hall. This is right out of Saul
Alinsky's playbook and must have caused another community organizer to wonder.
Go Sox
Brian McCann
I agree. Charters are the wave of the future. And whatever their effectiveness, no one will care, least of all about the "children." Out of sight, out of mind.
DeleteThe magnet schools and some other good neighborhood schools will remain, I believe, and some public schools will be needed to "service" the kids who are unacceptable to the charters, but that will be it.
MPots: Out of sight, out of mind? You seem to be talking about prisons, not charter schools.
Delete"and some public schools will be needed to "service" the kids who are unacceptable to the charters"
1) This won't be necessary if charters are established with the specific mission to handle these kids.
2) You seem to be painting this as a charter school vs public school issue. When it isn't at all. Charter schools and magnet schools are types of public schools.
Just saw the tea hers marching through the loop. They look great. Hang in there.
ReplyDeleteI hope they do. They have proven their very unprofessional attitude. The longer they stay away from the jobs that they threw away, the more likely it is the district will hire real teachers and that the quitters never return.
DeleteYeah they look like they are having a ball. Good for them. Reminds me of an old SNL skit where Pres Clinton was at a town hall and this dim wit gets up and says..."Mr. President...like I see all these people...and like they have all this stuff...and like I just want to know...uh...where's my stuff?" Get your hands out of the taxPAYER'S pocket and get back to work.
DeleteLaying about for the week is easier than teaching. Nothing wrong with that, but they are still stiffing the taxpayers with a hefty bill for their time doing this.
DeleteAnd they are intentionally causing havoc with parents' and families' lives. Maliciously, in fact. And damaging education along the way.
Rahm: replace them, and fast.
Good teachers, bad teachers, not enough pay, too much pay. None of the arguments are really hitting the main point. The cityis out of money. MOST people are facing job cuts in their professions and PAY cuts and extra work. These are terrible times and this mountain of entitlements and debt has reached a threshold. We simply cannot afford it. Why don't these union people understand ? Rahm Emanual is a liberal Democrat, former Clinton and Obama man. Why is he forsaking you? Hint we are out of money. Or let me put it another way - we are out of money...or maybe you will understand this - we don't have any more money.
ReplyDeleteExcept when it comes to TIFs and the well-connected (see "Infrastructure Fund"). Rahm's next campaign slogan: Austerity for some.
DeleteAusterity for some makes sense. Apply it to the wealthy and well-off (such as overpaid public 'servants' with excessive $76,000 salaries for not even a full years work fattening already fat wallets), but don't apply it to the needy.
DeletePriorities, people!
Not the way the cookie crumbles, dm, and u know it.
DeleteIt might crumble here: if the greedy strikers are busted down a peg. That is my guess as to what you mean by 'you know it'. I can only guess, as your sentence wasn't that well written and is unclear.
DeleteInteresting facts. The average teacher makes ALOT more than the average taxpayer paying their salaries.
ReplyDelete40% of CPS kids graduate HS.
Pay us more because we have a second teaching degree. If you are so intelligent and educated then why such colossal failure to educate? (I know socie-economic factors exist, blah, blah, blah) but if you want to be paid more for that degree then it should make some difference in results...and if you CANT - then why should we pay you well above average salaries let alone a pay raise? Why not just get some ex military to baby sit these people who apparently are unteachable and save us all millions in taxes every year? Oh I know why. Because you would be out of a job.
And if they are at a school where they are personally responsible for raising test scores year after year? Oh, and by the way, ex-military would charge more.
DeleteTest scores will come up easily from the basement they are in now once the deadweight are replaced with those who put kids first.
DeleteWe would not even need all these standardized tests if the current (former?) teachers had been doing their job.
I am reluctant to call them 'teachers' at this point. Their behavior is grossly unprofessional at this time. Perhaps lazy, too. It is a lot easier to loaf about at home or even wave a sign and shout juvenile taunts than it is to actually teach.
ReplyDeleteWhy should this behavior be rewarded? Give them a day to go back to work an prove they are actually teachers, or fire them and replace them with real dedicated professionals.
Put the kids first.
The NY Times, a liberal flagship said it - Karen Lewis appears to be basking in the power to shut down the system. These people are wild eyed radicals who have convinced older teachers (who will be retiring soon and dont care) and young, dare I say dumb? new young teachers that they are being mistreated. In this economy it really is like fingernails on the chalk board to the truly "average" Chicagoan who is making in many cases ALOT less than you. Do you have any idea how angry it makes people to hear you complain when you are making MUCH more than they are? You are completely witless.
ReplyDeleteRace to the bottom, anonymous, race to the bottom. We should all aspire to making less to satisfy our neighbor.
DeleteIt's a race to the top, actually, for those who do a good job. Those who coast and slide along will fall to the bottom, yes.
DeleteMPots' point is also interesting, as the policy he/she favors: overpaying teachers, does indeed push the average taxpayer to the bottom, by lightening their wallet with the excessive taxation required to make these upper crust $76K income earners so upper-crusty.
DeleteOh I see....when people do it in the private sector by succeeding and providing people with something they want - that is evil. But making people (through taxation) - people making LESS than you pay you ever more...that is ok....sounds like a rigged system to me oh capitalist hater...Maggie Thatcher "The problem with socialism is that eventually you run out of other people's money"
DeleteAnd when you apply socialism to the Sahara Desert, eventually you run out of sand.
DeleteRelieved to know that $75000 puts me in the "wealthy and well-off" range (and no, I ain't no teacher, neither). Maybe on Mars.
ReplyDeleteAnd on Earth... where it puts you above the vast majority. In fact, I checked: 75k makes you richer than 99.5% of the people on Earth.
DeleteAnd also in the US, where according to the demographic data from this year, that income puts you in the top 33%. Even if not the thin upper crust, that is still the top slice of the pie.
You might have trouble buying that third car on $75000.... cry me a river.
Seriously, you must be sheltered in a gated community if you aren't aware that the 75k income is deep within the top 1% income percentile for this planet. Not Mars.
And again, seriously, research this. I did.
Mpots: And much closer to you than Mars, we can look at Chicago. According to city-data.com. Here we see that $76K per year puts the income earners in an even smaller group compared to the country: the top 29.7%
ReplyDeleteAdd to that that the teacher income really likely not $76k, but likely at least $10,000 higher than that once you toss in healthcare and other benefits. And they really are in the penthouse of income.
dmarks: clearly you have a problem with people who make more than you do -- and not just teachers. I don't need to do the research, I already have. I've raised a family. I know what a total income of 75,000 buys in Chicago when raising kids, renting or owning a house, not a penthouse, and it doesn't mean a third car, either, or even a second one. I know what it's like living in New York City on much less, with kids, and that, too, was when my wife taught in the public schools there. So don't try and type me -- I don't fit into your statistical mold. Enjoy your time in space.
ReplyDeleteI refer you again to the facts about how $75 k is well off... and especially on planet Earth. Where , again, it is well within the top 1% income percentile. Your references to 'space' and 'Mars' are odd considering the terrestrial realityies.
DeleteI have no problem with people making more than me.. if it is done honestly. But when people like them are rich through the theft of money from every one else through taxation... that is another matter. The fact that they take their princely sums and do a bad job instead of work worthy of their wage makes it worse.
By definition, then, anyone in public service making 75,000 is rich, and, therefore, a thief? Includes attorneys, counsel to the city, police, basically, anybody.
DeleteYou clearly don't know any teachers.
Oh yes I know them quite well. And while I would not call someone who gets high wages not by earning them but by threatening violence and harassing people a lowlife. But not necessarily a theif.
DeleteBut come on MPots, is making people rich as you want the real goal of public service? What about other forgotten matters... such as... imagine that... serving the public?
Thanks for dodging the question.
DeleteApparently you just know teachers who threaten and harass you, and are therefore lowlifes? I'd drop them fast.
I went down to Clark Street for a visit to yak with the strikers. Told then that stikes always worked in my day,but this time I'm not so sure with Rahmbo at the head with his pal Barry and public support perhaps not as strong. Oh well reminded me of that genius Chesterton who said back in the 20's, "The whole modern world has divided itself into Conservatives and Progressives. The business of Progressives is to go on making mistakes. The business of Conservatives id to prevent mistakes from being corrected..."
ReplyDeleteI have argued for years that neither side has a clue because they fail to understand that the issue is leadership from the CEO on down. In over 32 years at CPS leadership was never evident downtown or locally because they all become political to survive. Leadership is difficult to develop in organizations but not impossible. A good leader at a school will understand that the classroom has become an almost impossible environment for teachers to succeed. A real leader recognizes that
human resource principles are key not principal lackeys. Lewis,however seems to get it and may be the best CTU leader since Healey. Both were first rate teachers in the HS core curriculum.
Brian McCann